Ashford

[eternallove]

MacKayla is from Ashford Georgia, why then does she speak, and think in english that doesn't have a southern drawl, she doesn't even do things the way a southern girl would speak like ending things with sugar, or saying words together like are'ya.

[stormsandsins]

Dunno about anyone else but I get tired pretty easily of a regional accent (except, perhaps, Scots). Even French words like chérie or ma belle drive me up the wall very often, half the time because authors can't be bothered to put accents where they're supposed to be.

But anyway, the point is, it gets old, and it's much easier for a reader to read a standard English.

Imagine a character saying something you don't understand. A regionalism. Or a foreign language (let's say... cojones) What's the first thing you do? "Huh?" Then you pull out your dictionary, find out that cojones are testicles, and by the time you get back to the story, you're lost.

Sugah, y'all and so on drive me up the wall, because I would hate to have to read a whole book (in first person) where the narrator would speak entirely in Southie. Instant. Disconnect. I certainly can't stand Québécois slang in an entire book:


Eille comment ça va toé? J'sais pas s'qui s'passe mais j'trouve qu'ya pas mal de gens qui m'comprennent pas.Hey how are you? I don't know what's wrong but a lot of people don't understand me.

Or French slang:


Comment ça va les mecs (et les meufs)? On se casse? Moi j'ai une pouffiasse qui me fait vraiment chier.How are you guys (and girls)? Everything cool? Me, I have bi+ch on my heels and she's really pissing me off.

(so forget that you don't necessarily understand these because they're in French. The point is, they're two VERY different accents - put a Quebecker and a Frenchman in the same room and they might never understand each other -- and what does that prove? That you know the slang? Great for you. I certainly don't care that you know that men are mecs and women are meufs.)

Point in case, I had to find a French slang dictionary to get what meuf and pouffiasse mean. Is it more interesting to reach a broader audience or to show you know so much more than them and piss them off? Choices, choices...

(Hopefully I'm not the only one who feels this way toward slang in fiction?)

[Shewolfe]

I agree about the regionalisms - they get tiring after a while. EXCEPT for scottish ones!

"Aye, lass. Aye and nay and tup and doona." - Duncan Douglas :65:

[stormsandsins]

I agree about the regionalisms - they get tiring after a while. EXCEPT for scottish ones!

"Aye, lass. Aye and nay and tup and doona." - Duncan Douglas :65:

Absolutely. Scots never gets old. Love learning Gaelic phrases, too.

[eternallove]

In some way I can see that, but as a writer, I think if she doesn't think it should say it in her talk with other charters, cause that's just logical writier, (noevelst talking here.) and (southern belle talking here.)

[Saint]

to each to his own lol

[stormsandsins]

Yeah I mean there's tons of cowboy stories with the twang and stuff. I like a bit of an accent, but not completely overpowering.

Last night I felt a bit bitchy. Nothing against you guys!

[oracle]

You'd really have to ask the Southern ladies on this forum but I suspect that people don't think or carry on their internal dialogue like they would an external dialogue. Regardless, it leads me to artistic choice and KMM's trumps all...She wrote it how she wrote it and I just keep reading it...

[claudia celestial girl]

I've been taking writing classes and they teach us not to use 'dialect' - use of dialect in a story is very much out of fashion these days, though it used to be used a lot in the 19th century (think Tom Sawyer).

A southern dialect is a lot like an African American dialect. People find it hard to read, and it is off-putting. Also slang can get dated really fast. I read a book yesterday in which the black character said 'What's shakin'?', and I was like ?????? This author has watched too much Starsky & Hutch.

So for an author there is a balance between 'authenticity' and 'readability'.

For me, I hear the southern in Mac's speech, even if the explicit dialect tags are not there. Especially when she is 'putting on the Southern' - at that time, I can almost hear the 'sugah' at the end of every sentence. Mac has an unmistakeably Southern way of saying things. Like ... "I woke up so fast it was like being hit over the head with mom's cast iron frying pan." when she tells the Inspector - 'Oh no sir, my sister didn't use drugs ...'

Also, for me, it helps that on the audiobooks, the reader does Mac with a great southern accent. One of my favorites is when Mac says to Barrons (DF) - "Do you have a gun on you?" That word 'gun' really comes out in a southern drawl.

[Sunbunny]

I've been taking writing classes and they teach us not to use 'dialect' - use of dialect in a story is very much out of fashion these days, though it used to be used a lot in the 19th century (think Tom Sawyer).

A southern dialect is a lot like an African American dialect. People find it hard to read, and it is off-putting. Also slang can get dated really fast. I read a book yesterday in which the black character said 'What's shakin'?', and I was like ?????? This author has watched too much Starsky & Hutch.

So for an author there is a balance between 'authenticity' and 'readability'.

For me, I hear the southern in Mac's speech, even if the explicit dialect tags are not there. Especially when she is 'putting on the Southern' - at that time, I can almost hear the 'sugah' at the end of every sentence. Mac has an unmistakeably Southern way of saying things. Like ... "I woke up so fast it was like being hit over the head with mom's cast iron frying pan." when she tells the Inspector - 'Oh no sir, my sister didn't use drugs ...'

Also, for me, it helps that on the audiobooks, the reader does Mac with a great southern accent. One of my favorites is when Mac says to Barrons (DF) - "Do you have a gun on you?" That word 'gun' really comes out in a southern drawl.
You have great communication skills lady!! Your post was very soothing for me to read (as I will admit I had to beat down the anger for a minute). I am from Alabama, went to undergrad in Arkansas, I went on an International Studies Program for 3 months in Australia and two weeks in New Zealand, and am now living in Pittsburgh (though I am still an Alabama resident and can't find myself changing that anytime soon) I've been here for two years, and I have to say everyone here (in Pittsburgh) has been very very inviting and kind to me, so any insult to a Southern accent is an outlier. And you are very very right in saying that it can be difficult to read stories that are basically "culture" specific because so many different types of people from different cultures and areas around that world are reading these stories.

I hope this post want be too direct so that it has to be removed! But I do want to say again I think you really know how to talk to people. I personally want to :2v-vi: you!!!!

[claudia celestial girl]

You have great communication skills lady!! Your post was very soothing for me to read (as I will admit I had to beat down the anger for a minute). I am from Alabama, went to undergrad in Arkansas, I went on an International Studies Program for 3 months in Australia and two weeks in New Zealand, and am now living in Pittsburgh (though I am still an Alabama resident and can't find myself changing that anytime soon) I've been here for two years, and I have to say everyone here (in Pittsburgh) has been very very inviting and kind to me, so any insult to a Southern accent is an outlier. And you are very very right in saying that it can be difficult to read stories that are basically "culture" specific because so many different types of people from different cultures and areas around that world are reading these stories.

I hope this post want be too direct so that it has to be removed! But I do want to say again I think you really know how to talk to people. I personally want to :2v-vi: you!!!!
OH, I'm glad. I love dialect. I don't mind reading it. But I 'get it' that some people really don't like to pick up a book and have to struggle to absorb the 'way' people express themselves. For me, though, that's part of the joy of being drawn into the environment.

An example is the Outlander books by Diana Gabaldon. She writes all sorts of dialects, from the Scots, to certain French phrases, to german, to early American 18th century phraseology. It's really a joy to hear all of those 'voices' in her writing. But the books are really long, and hard to get into.

[Sunbunny]

Long and hard to read is really not me! I would have a heart attack because I always shake with anticipation when I read. You know that "what's gonna happen, what's gonna happen! AH!" and then to add a "what are they saying, what are they saying! AH!" would completely do me in!

[stormsandsins]

An example is the Outlander books by Diana Gabaldon. She writes all sorts of dialects, from the Scots, to certain French phrases, to german, to early American 18th century phraseology. It's really a joy to hear all of those 'voices' in her writing. But the books are really long, and hard to get into.

lol Gabaldon is probably the only author who uses French and doesn't mess it up (although I've found a few mistakes... muhaha, I'm such a nitpick). I mean, seriously, I don't know how many authors think that chérie is like so cool that they use it every other page. I also don't get why some authors think that mamère means grandmother. Meh? *totally confused*

For me, it's the misuse of language that puts me off. Or the way it can sometimes feel strained, like the author is trying too hard.

But DG? She does her research for every single language that she writes into her book. You are transported by those dialects into a place that is truly beautiful and historically accurate, somewhat because of those dialects that she weaves alongside the story. The dialect does not make the story.

[claudia celestial girl]

For me, it's the misuse of language that puts me off. Or the way it can sometimes feel strained, like the author is trying too hard.

But DG? She does her research for every single language that she writes into her book. You are transported by those dialects into a place that is truly beautiful and historically accurate, somewhat because of those dialects that she weaves alongside the story. The dialect does not make the story.

yeah - as an amatuer writer, I think that's the problem with writing in dialect - you have to really know exactly what you're trying to say, and not go for window dressing. Like the author who was trying to do a black character by using terms like 'what's shakin'?' - it can go awry when you force it or don't really have it down. Even the use of the term 'sugar' for a southern dialect might not be right. I know a lot of folks from the south (my SIL), and have never heard that phrase used. While, on the other hand, I've heard a lot of mind-twisting turns of phrase from my SIL that are so unique - and that's why I think KMM captured it well with Mac and some of the things that she says. (One of these days I'll have to tell the story of the 'pig's pickin's cake')!

Anyway - in my own (amateur) writing I'm trying for lots of dialect - that is, different voices - like the kinds that Diana Gabaldon uses. However, since it is on a different planet, with a made up language and culture, it is tricky. I'm doing it because I hear different dialects in contemporary language (maybe being a minority in an English speaking country is part of why for me different manners of speaking stand out). But I find that a lot of people reading my story have a really hard time with the language (that is, until they get into the story, then they love it). So I've been advised to drop it. it makes it too hard. So I'm studying DG with great relish! I agree with you whole heartedly:


You are transported by those dialects into a place that is truly beautiful and historically accurate, somewhat because of those dialects that she weaves alongside the story.

I'm delighted by her! And I sometimes wonder if being Mexican-American (DG is from Arizona) has something to do with why she's included that aspect in her story - having different dialects be such a large part of the way you interact with people that it becomes and essential part of story telling.

[Anita]

I never really thought about it much. But when I read it I hear a southern accent in my head.

[BlueCoyote]

This is what i imagine Mac to sound like (http://youtube.com/watch?v=xMrQRx1aKGI)

and i dont know many girls my age group (20-29 range) saying things like sugar, and hunny...
the closest i get to it is when talking to my dog lol i call her "Shug" which is short for sugar... and its strictly a pet name lol i dont talk to people that way.. well... ok i talk to my husband like that. but he's lived all over the world but likes the twang so i pour it on thicker for him.....
now what IS common is calling people Babe, Baby, or Sweet Heart. usually its sarcastic or someone trying to make a strong point. such as: "Sweetheart... you aint never gonna get him to change"
but.... the video above is really how a lot of southern girls talk. we dont really consider our accent until someone else mentions it.

[daligirl]

I imagine Mac talking like Taylor Swift.

[hazee]

Living in the south, although I'm originally from Canada, has cleared up a lot of stereotypes for me.


Especially regarding the language of the native southerners here. "Sugar" isn't actually used all that much, well...in this region anyway.

"Y'all" is more commonplace, but I'm glad KMM skipped out on that one. Y'all can be confusing to anyone who doesn't understand that y'all comes from you all.

Also, you'd expect a lot more stereotypical southern language use from the older southerners, but not from the YOUNGER southerners.


In my opinion, living in the south is more of an attitude than a language thing. I have friends who are complete southern belles -- love their pedicures, manicures, sun bathing, sweet tea and the like. Then I have other southern girl friends who are sassy, strong willed, and not afraid to speak their mind or get dirty.

Mac is a southern girl in both of those senses.

[snoopy]

This is very interesting.....I really never thought of an accent being an issue for some....I have read a lot of books where certain slangs are used, but mostly in the heat of passion or anger and I will place them at the time, but then their voice in my head have no accent at all..........wow........but I do dream in color...lol.......

[daligirl]

I think that the reading experience is easier when the slang is kept to a minimum. I've read books that used the Irish brogue and really had to work hard to read it.

I also tell my kids "ain't aint a word"

[KJTVH]

LOL, have to agree that reading accents would be too difficult. And I'd go bananas if Mac said things like 'sugar' or 'hunny' -- having been born and raised in Texas, I must say that I don't know anyone under the age of 50 that uses those words unless they are deliberately being a drama queen! And I've noticed that in my own internal dialogue, the only southern phrases I seem to use are y'all and fixin' -- maybe I've been around too many people from different cultures that nothing else remains.

KJ

[justjenny]

I'm from Texas, born and raised here, and I really don't have an accent. At least, definitely not as pronounced an accent as Mac has in the Darkfever audiobook. I'm guilty of saying y'all but that's about it...

[irelandcastillo]

I'm from Texas, born and raised here, and I really don't have an accent. At least, definitely not as pronounced an accent as Mac has in the Darkfever audiobook. I'm guilty of saying y'all but that's about it...

i say y'all too and i don't have an accent either. i have lived all over the united states and have picked up little things from different places.

i like the way Mac talks in the books. it makes it easy to read and follow without eye stumbling through phrases and stuff that you don't recognize.

[MoningRocks]

Trust me, I'm southern and while everybody says I have an accent, I don't say sugar and things like that. The only ppl you will hear that kinda talk from would be Granny's def not young people. That kinda talk is just a stereotype for the most part. If I heard Mac talking like that it would drive me crazy! It's like watching a movie where an actor is playing a southern character with a HORRIBLE fake accent spouting language like you mentioned...it's like finger nails on a black board and southerners can totally tell how fake it is.

[MoningRocks]

I see you are a southern girl too...so you can imagine that it would sound kinda fake to many people. In my head Mac talks like me.. :-)

[irelandcastillo]

on a side note... Ashford doesn't seem to exist in GA! i was going to drive there and take a picture in front of one of those signs that says "Welcome to....." wearing the Machalo but when i google, i got nothing! there are alot of streets called things with Ashford in them, like ashford-dunwoody but that was about it.

[TXIrish]

I'm from Texas, born and raised here, and I really don't have an accent. At least, definitely not as pronounced an accent as Mac has in the Darkfever audiobook. I'm guilty of saying y'all but that's about it...


i say y'all too and i don't have an accent either. i have lived all over the united states and have picked up little things from different places.

i like the way Mac talks in the books. it makes it easy to read and follow without eye stumbling through phrases and stuff that you don't recognize.


on a side note... Ashford doesn't seem to exist in GA! i was going to drive there and take a picture in front of one of those signs that says "Welcome to....." wearing the Machalo but when i google, i got nothing! there are alot of streets called things with Ashford in them, like ashford-dunwoody but that was about it.

I've never minded if an author included another language, as long as they include the translations somewhere. Don't leave me hanging, wondering what the term means and hope that I can figure it out from the context of the sentence. That isn't always clear and doesn't always work. DG is a good writer, very detailed, and her books are good especially if you need something more than a quick read. And KMM wouldn't be the first one to pull a town name out of a hat or be vague about where it was located.

As for speech patterns, I'm a Yankee (Chi-town) born and bred, living in Texas - and have to admit that for the most part people here don't really have strong Southern accents unless they're really trying to 'put on the south' as one of my friends puts it. :snick: I get teased about the way I pronounce some words, or the words I use that are different from what they would use (bag instead of sack, pop instead of soda, etc.) but other than that things are pretty understandable. It's probably due to the educational system, children are taught the 'correct' way to pronounce words and in general company use that pronunciation. In casual company, however, the vernacular seems to make an appearance.

I've been here about 15 years now and seldom if ever hear someone called 'sugah' and then usually it's being said by someone from Louisiana, New Orleans specifically. Don't know why, it just seems to be more common to the speech patterns there. (Sorry ladies, I spend 8 hrs 5 days a week plugged into a phone, that's what I hear! Don't mind it either, they can call me just about anything they want to as long as they don't call me late for dinner! :snick: Love that Cajun cooking!)

Where you learn to talk has a lot to do with how you talk. My older son sounds like Chicago, my younger like Springfield, MO. Not a big difference, but one has a different cant and crisper words (Chi) than the slightly slower drawl of the other (MO).

[SpookyGirl]

I don't like having to "read" an accent either... unless it's Scots. Anyone ever read Gone with the Wind? I know it was written a hell of a long time ago, but I find Margaret Mitchell's attempt to write how the slaves speak very offensive.

I live in MA, so around here we have a pretty strong accent of our own. I never notice I'm not using my R's until I go someplace else (like California, I have relatives there). I spent a whole summer there when I was about eight and they "trained" me that whole summer to talk "normally". It didn't stick. But I get the whole thing about hearing your own accent mangled in a movie... movie makers seem to think everyone in Boston talks like the Kennedy's! :biglaugh:

[greeneyz]

I agree about the regionalisms - they get tiring after a while. EXCEPT for scottish ones!

"Aye, lass. Aye and nay and tup and doona." - Duncan Douglas :65:

:th_nod::biglaugh:

[daligirl]

on a side note... Ashford doesn't seem to exist in GA! i was going to drive there and take a picture in front of one of those signs that says "Welcome to....." wearing the Machalo but when i google, i got nothing! there are alot of streets called things with Ashford in them, like ashford-dunwoody but that was about it.

I googled it too. There is an Ashburn Ga that I got it confused with-plus there's an Ashford Academy (school) that I hear about on the local news occasionally. I guess Ashford could be any small town in GA.

[mandy]

This is an interesting thread. I personally prefer that slang is not used in the books. Let me just point out something, if every irish person that we met in the fever books talked like the first few irish people that Mac met when she first arrived in Dublin in Darkfever it would have been very hard to read. Heck I'm irish and I didn't understand it, and found it very hard to read!

I think that accents etc should be left to a persons imagination or for the audio narrator. I love being able to have my own idea of how someone speaks as opposed to someone explaining explictly how their charactor should speak.

Thats just my opinion.

[Fae Crazy]

I am from the south and have lived all over, even up north. When I moved away from the south, I was teased quite often for my ya'lls & fixin to's. I never completely lost my southern talk, but it's not as bad as it use to be. I think it's good enough to just use references about sweet tea & homemade lemonade. This way people from all over can get the jest of the story without confusing the heck out of them and for us southerners we still get a feeling of the southern Mac.

[Yolanda24]

Your a very different kind of Souther Gal, I'm from New York But I have lived in florida for 15 years, According to the people I am from here, ( new yorkers ) no longer Claim me.. lol...

I consider my self from the North ( itty Gritty).. I may feel like you if the Girl was from Newyork not considering my customs to hers,... It's funny she ( mac) is in Dublin now she even says Feck time again... so Mac is a little Irish to.. right..

[Cynara]

I've heard that indicating accent or dialect without being annoying, alienating, or condescending is one of the hardest things an author can undertake.

Robertson Davies did pretty well in Fifth Business with a French character whose accent is suggested only in the way the protagonist's name is spelled - "Ramezay" instead of "Ramsey". It's a subtle change, but suggests the accent without being overbearing.

[PuggyJo]

I'm from Texas and I sound Texan and speak Texan but don't really think Texan. I don't think words like bigold in my head. :snick:

[Mysticfairy08]

Well I can only speak for myself but I'm a southern girl and I NEVER say things like sugar and honey. Its condescending (SP?) in my opinion. Plus we never think with an accent and thats what a lot of Macs is. Although if you heard the audiobook Mac has a southern accent and its not overpowering.
Well thats just my two cents worth. LOL

[Manx357]

I also never really thought about how Mac's accent would sound. I'm from Indiana and there are people with really strong southern accents and people that you wouldn't even think were from the south.