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Thread: Who or what is JZB?

  1. #1
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    Default Who or what is JZB?

    I think Barrons is Draghar... not only Draghar Druid trained, but all or part Draghar.

    Just as KMM used Norse legend for Berserkers, I think she again was inspired by Norse in creating her Draghar, using both of these as sources:

    1. Draugr: Old Norse for "dragon", a winged serpent.
    2. Draugr (plural Draugar: Undead creature in Norse mythology.
    a. Literally means "spirit who guards the burial mound (barrow) of a king", jealously guards treasures; the body, not just soul, of the dead;, does not decompose/corrupt; contains alter ego of deceased, his representative, retains his character, i.e. if good/kind in life, remains so as draugr in pre-Christian belief (from Viktor Rydberg's "Teutonic Mythology" p.742) *
    b. Able to leave dwelling place (barrow) and visit the living during the night, often ending in death of one or more living creatures.
    c. Can increase their size at will, size being an expression of its vast strength.
    d. Immune to usual weapons, can only be defeated by Hero in hand-to-hand combat; almost impossible to kill, may come back (likens it to vampires in legend).
    e. Move magically through earth, swims through solid stone.
    f. At times, exhibit powers of a magical nature, possess knowledge of the future, can control weather, shape-shift.
    g. Believed to long for the things of life, envy those yet alive.

    http://knowledgerush.com/kr/encyclop...uropean_dragon
    * Rydberg link too long. Google "draugr thrainn"; link starts with http://nsl-archiv.com/Buecher... ; enter "draugr" in in-site search
    http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/ghosts.shtml
    http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Draugr
    http://www.orkneyjar.com/folklore/trows/draugr.htm
    http://economicexpert.com/a/Draugr.html

    All traits listed above tie to Barrons in some way:
    1. Serpent/snake references to JB by Mac, winged serpent tattoo on Draghar Druids/followers (DH), Druids using dark magic.
    2a. JB guards treasures (relics) and treasures his belongings (Persian rug).
    b. Usually out at night, often returns with blood on him.
    c. Mac frequently mentions his taking up more space than he should.
    d. JB's speeches re killing man who broke him "with my bare hands", and about difficulty of killing vampires, other creatures "impossible to kill" (DF).
    e. At O'Bannion's vault door (DF) JB's "I'm a good swimmer" could hint at swimming through walls, not only water; says he could "continue swimmingly" without her; he defies laws of physics.
    f. JB's "I know everything" statement implies he's training/preparing Mac for future he knows she must face; fog is weather control; his sudden appearances defy laws of physics.
    g. JB's reaction to birthday cake, his reactions to blood, interest in Mac's neck (though that could be plain lust) all could indicate envy of the living.

    February's Teaser, "I was mighty.. They didn't recognize me.. I would remind them": Draghar were destroyed, some Druids scatterred, but Fae Court may not know Draghar had learned secrets of draugr-immortality. Or this scene took place long, long ago and JB was not recognized as threat (his powers not stolen). He could have been one of the Druids who were scattered and turned Draghar/draugr later; or he was rescued by 'V'lane's Princess'; or JB is Draghar/human hybrid.

    JB's curse may be his immortality (degree of undead?). I agree with whoever suggested JB could be long-dead Keltar, either forgotten or stricken from family records as Cian was -- another reason to feel cursed -- all Draghar were considered 'damned'. Several phrases from Keltar couples reappear between JB+Mac, and it would make a tidy wrap-up to the combined series.

    So, putting all my eggs in this basket, my theory is:
    1. Barrons is Draghar.
    a. Exact connection to draugr (dragon/undead) unknown yet, but exists.
    b. Draghar gained immortality, with unfortunate side-effects of undeadness.
    2. Barrons is guarding the barrow of royalty (King or Queen) and royal treasures (Fae relics).
    a. BBB is the bastion(projecting part of a fortification or stronghold) over the barrow and vault.
    3. Barrons, one of "the ancient ones", has returned to reclaim what TDD had stolen from them -- maybe powers, but also Druids' good name, right to exist.
    a. With Fae rulers incapacitated, balance of power has shifted, so "might makes right" is truer than ever. Long ago, Fae had the 'might' -- now, maybe not. This also explains the enmity between JB and V'lane: Draghar vs. Fae.
    b. Mac is at fulcrum of at least 3-way power struggle. Mac is epic, a powerful weapon.
    c. Source and extent of her abilities is unknown to her and us, not so unknown to JB and V'lane. (Known to LM? Rowena?) No wonder they all want to harness her powers to increase their faction's 'might'.
    4. Barrons kills when necessary, out of mercy and with honor.
    5. Barrons says he will never let Mac die. If she dies or is too near death to recover, JB will turn her Draghar/draugr as he is -- maybe not the HEA the way we wanted, but a HEA for Mac+Barrons just the same.
    6. Draghar/draugr are related and superior to Hunters; were betrayed by Hunters when Hunters sided (as mercenaries) with TDD against Draghar long ago.

    I could be wrong. But until theory disproved, I see definite connections between Barrons/Draghar/draugr. (Also strong connection between Barrons/Keltars, but that ventures into 'who', not the 'what' addressed here.)
    Comments welcome. (I have chocolate, so am prepared for anything.)
    Last edited by oxymoron; 03-28-2009 at 04:11 PM.

  2. #1311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meli View Post
    sorry just remembered this one,

    Yes! Possibly, or something very similar

    For five years I have thought JB was Cruce and today it hit me...Cruce=Curce=Curse Cruce cursed the silvers, it appears JB is cursed

  3. #1312
    Fevered cheeky's Avatar
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    wasnt Cruce a part of the Seelie though?
    JZB couldnt be Seelie anymore because he wears the Silver & Black torque which indicates Unseelie Royalty
    I dont think hes an Unseelie Prince either

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    I've never been in the Barrons=UK camp. There are many reasons that I believe this, here are some of them.
    1. Barrons memories. When he realizes that something is different about him and the others that flank him. Something rattles in his chest.
    2. Mercenary. When Barrons is accused of being a mercenary by Mac and his reaction to it and Ryodan's statement to Mac to not call Barrons a mercenary to his face.
    3. Barrons laughter. The fae don't show much emotion. They can't cry. Don't think they laugh either, although V'lane has smiled, but Mac said his expressions don't seem real and look like he has been practicing facial expressions.
    4. Barrons humor. Barrons has a sense of humor. We don't see it often, but it is there anyway. Some of Mac and Barrons conversations are the funniest in the whole series. Made me LOL. Don't see the UK as having a sense of humor.
    5. The UK owning a book store in Dublin. Don't think so. The UK would not even need cars, he could just sift wherever he needs to be.
    6. He can't touch the Book or control it. If he were the UK, creator of the Book, he would be able to contain the book, even if he doesn't touch it.
    7. His relationship with the other 8 men that he seems to be the leader of. Dani says they are all carrying the same power and move like animals, some more than others. Dani says she didn't sense any Fae in any of them. I think the UK would surround himself with Unseelie to do his bidding.
    8. He could have sifted Mac out of the warehouse. He could have sifted himself and Mac out of the Burrens where he could get the things he needed to heal her and not have to feed her unseelie.
    That's all I can think of for now.
    iluvsushi:


    "Woman, you make me crazed." JZB

  5. #1314
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    I've never been in the Barrons=UK camp. There are many reasons that I believe this, here are some of them.
    1. Barrons memories. When he realizes that something is different about him and the others that flank him. Something rattles in his chest.
    2. Mercenary. When Barrons is accused of being a mercenary by Mac and his reaction to it and Ryodan's statement to Mac to not call Barrons a mercenary to his face.
    3. Barrons laughter. The fae don't show much emotion. They can't cry. Don't think they laugh either, although V'lane has smiled, but Mac said his expressions don't seem real and look like he has been practicing facial expressions.
    4. Barrons humor. Barrons has a sense of humor. We don't see it often, but it is there anyway. Some of Mac and Barrons conversations are the funniest in the whole series. Made me LOL. Don't see the UK as having a sense of humor.
    5. The UK owning a book store in Dublin. Don't think so. The UK would not even need cars, he could just sift wherever he needs to be.
    6. He can't touch the Book or control it. If he were the UK, creator of the Book, he would be able to contain the book, even if he doesn't touch it.
    7. His relationship with the other 8 men that he seems to be the leader of. Dani says they are all carrying the same power and move like animals, some more than others. Dani says she didn't sense any Fae in any of them. I think the UK would surround himself with Unseelie to do his bidding.
    8. He could have sifted Mac out of the warehouse. He could have sifted himself and Mac out of the Burrens where he could get the things he needed to heal her and not have to feed her unseelie.
    That's all I can think of for now.
    We can't post teasers we have been given for Shadowfever here. But if you look at calender with quotes in it you will see UK has a sense of humor.

    UK is rumored not to be Tuatha De Danaan at all so I don't think we can argue that he's not like V'lane as evidence that Jericho is not UK. Jericho as well mentions that he is unlike any other player on board which would then make him not the same as Ryodan and his men.

    THe UK based on Immortal Highlander doesn't have much to do with unseelie at all and hasn't been seen by anyone in quite awhile. He even consider abandoning them in prison and leading the Seelie himself.

    If UK was cursed or seen as a threat he would make sense that he might not be able to sift. They didn't even learn how to sift until after he was imprisoned. He made sifting silvers because no one knew how to sift back them. Could someone have taught unseelie how to? There wouldn't have been much use for it within prison.

    The bookstore is not just a bookstore. It has same feel to it as other OOPs and hallows. It's much larger than it looks, keeps everything out, protects his vault, has a beast underneath it, etc. It wouldn't shock me if there is a portal underneath it and it leads to fortress. The bookstore is also the perfect way to to maybe hear word of Sinsar Dubh. I really don't think Mac stumbled on it by accident. I think she was drawn to it. It also doesn't appear on maps, registered, etc.

  6. #1315
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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    I've never been in the Barrons=UK camp. There are many reasons that I believe this, here are some of them.
    1. Barrons memories. When he realizes that something is different about him and the others that flank him. Something rattles in his chest.
    2. Mercenary. When Barrons is accused of being a mercenary by Mac and his reaction to it and Ryodan's statement to Mac to not call Barrons a mercenary to his face.
    3. Barrons laughter. The fae don't show much emotion. They can't cry. Don't think they laugh either, although V'lane has smiled, but Mac said his expressions don't seem real and look like he has been practicing facial expressions.
    4. Barrons humor. Barrons has a sense of humor. We don't see it often, but it is there anyway. Some of Mac and Barrons conversations are the funniest in the whole series. Made me LOL. Don't see the UK as having a sense of humor.
    5. The UK owning a book store in Dublin. Don't think so. The UK would not even need cars, he could just sift wherever he needs to be.
    6. He can't touch the Book or control it. If he were the UK, creator of the Book, he would be able to contain the book, even if he doesn't touch it.
    7. His relationship with the other 8 men that he seems to be the leader of. Dani says they are all carrying the same power and move like animals, some more than others. Dani says she didn't sense any Fae in any of them. I think the UK would surround himself with Unseelie to do his bidding.
    8. He could have sifted Mac out of the warehouse. He could have sifted himself and Mac out of the Burrens where he could get the things he needed to heal her and not have to feed her unseelie.
    That's all I can think of for now.
    More proof that Barrons is not the Unseelie King. Found this conversation between V'lane and Barrons in Bloodfever on page 172. They are discussing the Sinsar Dubh in this text.

    "You have no right to it," V'lane was telling Barrons.
    "Might makes right. Hasn't that always been your motto?" Barrons said.
    "You could never understand my motto."
    "Better than you think, fairy."
    There is nothing you could do with it even if you managed to get it. You do not speak the language in which it was scribed, and could never hope to decode it."
    "Maybe if I had the stones."
    "Not all of them," V'lane said coldly, and I knew from the disdain in his voice that he had at least one, if not both of the other translation stones we'd been hunting.

    I take V'lane's comment in italics as an admission that Barrons is not the author of the book, the Unseelie King, and does not know the language in which it was scribed or how to translate the text without the help of the stones.

  7. #1316
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    Good argument girls! i can debate probably most of these points based on the JZB=UK theory

    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
    I think the 'Hunter' they rode was one of his group-of-8, and not a real Hunter that actually kills sidhe-seers. He might even have been Lor, and complained about being used as conveyance.
    Royal Hunters obey the monarchy and those who pay for their services - incl SQ & UK who made them. They could be the very top echelon/caste - the new, improved Royal Hunter 5.0
    which could very well be the 8

    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
    I think JB got the stones/gravel from the US prison by going there through the Silvers, when he rescued others of his kind (the group-of-8) who may be cross-breeds, themselves (explaining varied degrees of non-humanness).
    thats actually a remarkably good argument however suppose JZB's mirror could be a multi-tiered passage that passes via the path containing the beast, into the second set of silvers of the Mansion portal and then onto the UKs prison
    the UK could potentially have setup such a tunnel after he presented the Hall of All Days mirror to the SQ - thus ensuring the privacy of the hidden portals he kept from her (the ones that included the Mansion and the Concubines play area)

    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
    I think Barrons defends some of the UK's past actions because the UK is his father, and Barrons knows the UK did love the concubine and wasn't all bad, as most people think.
    its a good point but this whole story, IMHO, is all about finding redemption for ones actions and saving the ones you love - the UK is trying to redeem himself and fix the mess he created by creating the US and The Book and potentially save the Concubine in the process
    the only chance/way that this could be done was if Barrons/UK lived forever and the Concubine is reincarnated (since humans appear to be the only beings capable of this)
    i think Barrons interactions with Mac is to change her to make her stronger so that in this lifetime she has the capacity to appreciate what hes done for her and to accept that sometimes you have to do bad things to save the ones you love - i think hes trying to save the world and also save his one true love and the solution to that would be by finding the Sinsar Dubh, rebuilding the walls between Fae & Earth using the Song of Making and keeping Mac alive instead of letting her commit suicide, like the Concubine did oh so long ago

    Quote Originally Posted by oxymoron View Post
    I agree that Mac is Barrons' last chance (not sure why that is the case) for another shot at true love -- the relationship he (as Cruce) wasn't able to have with his father's concubine. Maybe it's because Mac's bloodline (Patrona's pairing) is the last one that has a chance to mesh with his own mixed blood. I believe Patrona paired up with a non-human, so Mac's genetic mix has a good chance of standing up to Barrons' mix (UK/dragonish father, non-fae humanoid mother).
    1. I dont believe Barrons is the UK's son or Cruce's son - Barron's is too Alpha domineering to take second place to anyone (incl his supposed daddy)
    2. The last chance I believe refers to the fact that its been a millenium since the Concubine has been around and that Mac is the first reincarnation of the Concubine and potentially the last chance the UK has to win her love back
    3. Cruce is dead - his curse is not (does this mean Cruce is still alive because the curse is?) if so, then suppose Cruce is DEG and is still watching the story unfold and also scribing it as we speak

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    I've never been in the Barrons=UK camp. There are many reasons that I believe this, here are some of them.

    1. Barrons memories. When he realizes that something is different about him and the others that flank him. Something rattles in his chest.
    Suppose that Barrons is different because he was punished by the Fae for killing SQ and that he now suffers this beast form on Earths plane of existance and the 8 other beings are the Royal Hunters who were punished with him? He's as old as dirt and maybe his punishment has been an eternal life on earth contending with his beast form and losing the one thing he covets most - the Concubine

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    2. Mercenary. When Barrons is accused of being a mercenary by Mac and his reaction to it and Ryodan's statement to Mac to not call Barrons a mercenary to his face.
    I think he takes offence to 'being mercenary' because it is the exact same reason the Concubine killed herself in the first place. He left her in the mirrors for thousands of years so he could find a way to make her Fae and in doing so created the godawful Unseelie, thus disgusting her because of his dark creations - he was mercenary in his actions

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    3. Barrons laughter. The fae don't show much emotion. They can't cry. Don't think they laugh either, although V'lane has smiled, but Mac said his expressions don't seem real and look like he has been practicing facial expressions.
    Fae become changed when interacting with humanity. If Barrons is as old as dirt maybe he's also been afflicted by the very same thing. Objects of Power take on a life of their own and maybe even the UK can change his ways to redeem himself for his past actions, feeling emotions and preserving humanity being a part of that evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    4. Barrons humor. Barrons has a sense of humor. We don't see it often, but it is there anyway. Some of Mac and Barrons conversations are the funniest in the whole series. Made me LOL. Don't see the UK as having a sense of humor.
    I agree - i love their dialogue! But I also think the UK is as funny as the SQ and even Adam because their interactions with humanity have fundamentally changed them - Fae are souless until they become mortal and live in the human world .... they learn how to love and laugh - Adam is the proof of this

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    5. The UK owning a book store in Dublin. Don't think so. The UK would not even need cars, he could just sift wherever he needs to be.
    just imagine if the Bookstore was in fact an illusion or a portal to one of the many rooms in the Mansion .... hmmmm ..... or an earthbound version of the UK's castle

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    6. He can't touch the Book or control it. If he were the UK, creator of the Book, he would be able to contain the book, even if he doesn't touch it.
    He cant touch it anymore because like the book, he has changed. Changed by humanity and changed by love .....
    *gusty sigh*

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    7. His relationship with the other 8 men that he seems to be the leader of. Dani says they are all carrying the same power and move like animals, some more than others. Dani says she didn't sense any Fae in any of them. I think the UK would surround himself with Unseelie to do his bidding.
    i think we can all agree that Barrons is far too alpha to be number 2 in a team. Maybe its this very trait that makes him a King in his own right and the other 8 his trusty minions/servants/guards/royal hunters

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    8. He could have sifted Mac out of the warehouse. He could have sifted himself and Mac out of the Burrens where he could get the things he needed to heal her and not have to feed her unseelie.
    Sifting time is impossible at this stage. Maybe Barrons doesnt sift but fly with wings instead? It is possible that as punishment the SQ removed these powers from him in this plane of existance

    Quote Originally Posted by iluvsushi View Post
    That's all I can think of for now.
    Indeed!

    And thank you for your arguments and such a great debate ... I love throwing a good theory around and tossing it on its head to analyse further! :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by SwimRobin View Post
    More proof that Barrons is not the Unseelie King. Found this conversation between V'lane and Barrons in Bloodfever on page 172. They are discussing the Sinsar Dubh in this text.

    "You have no right to it," V'lane was telling Barrons.
    "Might makes right. Hasn't that always been your motto?" Barrons said.
    "You could never understand my motto."
    "Better than you think, fairy."
    There is nothing you could do with it even if you managed to get it. You do not speak the language in which it was scribed, and could never hope to decode it."
    "Maybe if I had the stones."
    "Not all of them," V'lane said coldly, and I knew from the disdain in his voice that he had at least one, if not both of the other translation stones we'd been hunting.

    I take V'lane's comment in italics as an admission that Barrons is not the author of the book, the Unseelie King, and does not know the language in which it was scribed or how to translate the text without the help of the stones.
    I think that it was mentioned in one of the highlander books that everytime the book is opened it is in a different language so this could also mean that even the UK himself wouldn't be able to read it.

  9. #1318
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwimRobin View Post
    More proof that Barrons is not the Unseelie King. Found this conversation between V'lane and Barrons in Bloodfever on page 172. They are discussing the Sinsar Dubh in this text.

    "You have no right to it," V'lane was telling Barrons.
    "Might makes right. Hasn't that always been your motto?" Barrons said.
    "You could never understand my motto."
    "Better than you think, fairy."
    There is nothing you could do with it even if you managed to get it. You do not speak the language in which it was scribed, and could never hope to decode it."
    "Maybe if I had the stones."
    "Not all of them," V'lane said coldly, and I knew from the disdain in his voice that he had at least one, if not both of the other translation stones we'd been hunting.

    I take V'lane's comment in italics as an admission that Barrons is not the author of the book, the Unseelie King, and does not know the language in which it was scribed or how to translate the text without the help of the stones.
    Yes! I knew it said so somewhere! thanks!

    Another proof Barrons isn't the UK: it's a small, silly proof, but I believe it's convincing: in the last of Barrons' memories (the one with the child)... he throws up!! I'm sure the Fae don't!!

    As for what he is... I still don't know. Something else. The Beast. He's cursed. But other than that...

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    If Barrons was the UK wouldn't V'lane know?

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    Okay, crazy thought and I don't know why I didn't pick up on this before... The spear, when Mac makes him hold it, does he ever actually touch the spear itself? Or does he only hold the rod it's affixed to? He even says the rod itself is not the original and that it's only the spearhead they were actually after. I don't know what conclusion this leads me to... maybe UK or unseelie after all?

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