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Thread: Missing Highlander Alert! Maniacs, it's all hands on deck time!

  1. #1
    Keltar Loremistress VictoriaP's Avatar
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    Default Missing Highlander Alert! Maniacs, it's all hands on deck time!

    (This post is dedicated to my fellow bampots, Jill and Aprilssix. And Dageus-in-my-head, of course. I blame all of you equally.)

    The first part is for anyone who needs a laugh, just read down to the line. The rest is for those who are actually curious about the mystery we're trying to solve.

    Warning, it's ridiculously long--drafted seven pages in a Word notebook--and probably meets the criteria for having me committed to the local mental hospital. As long as they let me bring Dageus along, I promise I'll go quietly.


    Calling all Maniacs!: Have you seen this man?

    Missing: Dark Highlander's possibly evil twin (triplet?). Substantial reward offered for information leading to location and capture.

    Name: Dageus MacKeltar. Referred to below as "Dageus Two" due to presence of primary owner of said name who is currently known to reside in 21st century.
    Last seen: 16th century Scotland, near Inverness
    Age at disappearance: 33

    Note: As missing Dageus Two has barely enough mention to justify his existence, all descriptions below are of Dageus Prime. The two, being once one, are likely interchangeable in most ways, including subject to the same desires and temptations. Please do not, however, try to submit the current version to claim the reward. Experienced bampot Maniacs will be on call to verify actual identity. Plus the current version isn't likely to be very cooperative.

    Description:
    H/W: 6'4", approximately 220-230 lbs.
    Hair: Black, waist length, attracts women's fingers.
    Eyes: Variable depending on mood, ranging from tawny gold to deep black.
    (Warning: darker eyes are a very bad sign. If spotted in this condition, do not attempt to approach. Subject has demonstrated great skill at an unusual variant of the game "Tag"; do not turn your back on him. Back away slowly and consult the nearest good Druid, current or former Seelie Prince, or mysterious "one of nine" you can find for advice.)

    Current location could be anywhere as subject is not dependent on space or time; well versed in Druidic lore and time travel, comes from wealthy family and probably possesses most lavishly expensive local means of transport.

    Often seen in the company of women, books, and silk sheets. Temperament ranges from gentle and playful to bitter, sarcastic, and predatory. Subject appears to be both insatiably curious and curiously insatiable; the first trait is likely to be his downfall in the end, the second will almost certainly be the downfall of Maniacs who come into contact with him.

    This man is considered armed and dangerous in all ways physically, magically, and seductively; avoid contact at all costs unless thoroughly grounded in defensive tactics for these categories of potential attack. Or you're into that sort of thing.

    (You can thank Dageus-in-my-head for that one. He fed it to me over the course of about 20 minutes one night as a joke for Jill.)

    _____________________

    This post is part one of a two part thread. This thread is dedicated to the gathering of actual KMM-written evidence for the existence of more than one Dageus and speculation on just exactly what happened to create such a being. To discuss theories on what D2 might become, please see the second post, linked here and posted in the Dreamfever forum. We're trying to keep Fever spoilers out of this section of the board so we don't ruin the insanity...I mean, excitement, LOL....for our newcomers to both the Highlander and Fever worlds.

    Background summary: When Dageus went through the stones to warn himself, he saw a second Dageus (we’ll call him D2). In theory, and according to a similar happening with Drustan in Kiss, he should have cancelled himself out. Instead, he found he was able to watch his prior self for hours. Plain and simple, according to the laws of KMM’s universe, this should not have happened.

    This mystery has two parts, hence, the two threads.

    Part one is theoretically simple: Does a second Dageus exist? If so, is he a “good” Dageus or a “bad” Dageus? (Any one else hear Glinda the good witch with that statement? LOL)

    The second part is convoluted even at a glance: If D2 exists, who or what has he become and what role can we expect him to play in the Fever world? Since part two is pure speculation and pointless if we don’t have enough evidence for a duplicate’s existence, this thread will deal with the first question ONLY.

    Before I go any further, I have to admit to a bias. Skip the spoiler if you don’t want to know what I think, or skip it and come back to it at the end if you want to form your own conclusions before you know mine. After eating, drinking, sleeping, dreaming, and pretty much breathing Dageus-related info for the last 4 months or so, I don’t actually believe that a 2nd Dageus was created in this event. I tend to go with the Occam’s Razor theorem on this one—the simplest explanation is the easiest. Dageus returned to his former time and essentially “watched” his prior self as though watching a movie. He then returned to the 21st century. Therefore, prior Dageus simply continued forward and became current Dageus, rescuing Drustan, taking on the 13, and eventually fleeing forward in time through the stones. The “calamity” of the event was simply that he SHOULD have canceled himself out, not that he created a carbon copy of himself and both lived on.

    But let’s face it, that’s a pretty boring theory. So we’ll argue for the other side of the coin!


    Our own *Jo* maintains that Karen puts nothing in without reason, so let’s see what evidence we have to support the idea of a second Dageus.

    Hypothesis: When Dageus returned to the 16th century in an effort to cancel himself out and change the course of history, he instead created a duplicate of his prior self.

    Proof needed: Evidence found in any KMM book (except ITD, which Karen says to discount with regards to Fever). Any evidence from Karen herself—chats, blog or forum comments, interviews, etc.

    Right now, our evidence is pretty sketchy. I’m hoping you guys can find additional quotes that might help us validate D2’s existence. These are the only information we have direct from the source—at least, as near as I’ve been able to find.

    We have Dageus’ own words, the first time we hear of the possibility:

    From The Dark Highlander:
    (Dageus, speaking to Gwen and Drustan)“I’m no’ the same man anymore. I suspect that even if someone went back and warned the past me, and the past me didn’t break his oath, what I’ve become would still exist in the here and now.”

    “That’s impossible,” Gwen declared, with the firm conviction of a physicist having weighted her proofs both valid and true.

    “Nay ’tis not. I tried something very similar. Shortly after I broke my oath, I went back to a time before the fire, hoping to cancel myself out. To see if the past me might cause the dark me to cease to exist.”

    “The way things occurred when I took Gwen back into the past,” Drustan said thoughtfully. “The future me ceased to exist because two identical selves couldn’t coexist in the same moment in time.”

    “Aye. I even managed to carry a note to myself through the stones, so the past me would know to move you from the tower. But the canceling hinges on two identical selves.”

    “What are you saying?” Drustan demanded, hands clenching on the arms of his chair.

    “When I went back, not only didn’t the future me cease to exist, neither me did. I watched myself through a window for hours before fleeing again. He never disappeared. I might have strolled in and introduced myself.”

    “’Tis wise you didn’t. We must be ever wary of creating paradoxes,” Drustan said uneasily. Gwen gaped. “That’s not possible. According to the laws of physics, one of you would have to cease to exist”

    “You’d think after all she experienced with me, she wouldn’t be so hasty labeling things possible or impossible,” Drustan said dryly.

    “How could it be possible?” Gwen demanded.

    “Because I am no longer the same man I was. I’m different enough now with these ancient beings inside me, on some elemental level, that my past self did not conflict with who or what I’ve become.”

    “Oh, God,” Gwen breathed. “So even if we sent someone back, and they changed the past . . .”

    “I doubt it would have any effect on me at all. What I am now, seems to exist beyond the natural order of things. ’Tis possible it may cause some negative effect we can’t even imagine. There’s too much we doona understand here. I fear creating multiple moments in time for no good purpose.”
    Except, really, he already has. We know for certain, from this section alone, that Dageus has traveled through the stones (at this point) at least THREE times. Once back to save his brother. Back again to try and save himself. Forward to the 20th century. Then later in the book, twice more—back to the 16th century with Chloe and forward once more.

    So we have five times that we know for certain he’s crossed through the stones. Twice, he’s done so deliberately while a prior self was already there—the first two times. The first time, we think he must have wiped out himself and rescued Drustan. The second is the one we tend to question.

    But I have some odd thoughts on this:

    When Drustan crossed back through the stones, he did actually meet himself and cancel out the one that had originally slept through until the 21st century. At no point can I find that Dageus recalls doing the same. The very first time he uses the stones, he inherits his new companions. From that moment forward, he’s changed—but that change meant he could no longer cancel himself out, hence, no memory of doing so. From his own theory, that would indicate that the FIRST Dageus continued to exist….possibly in a splinter/parallel future or universe? Am I drawing myself into circles, or what am I missing here?

    Could it be the actual ACT of going through the stones as a changed man (or even not) that would create splinter selves, rather than the need for both selves to be present in the same time? And if this is the case, does that not mean we’re not dealing with just ONE missing Dageus, but potentially as many as five?!

    In support of this possibility, again from DH, Dageus cites:

    “We have no guarantee that the Tuatha De Danaan didn’t plant other dangers in the in-between. Any Keltar who opens a bridge for personal reasons is at risk.”
    We also have a note from Drustan in Kiss regarding alternate futures:

    “ ‘Tis why the gypsy are o’vercautious of fortune telling. They make it clear that any future they scry is but one possible future: the most likely one, yet not writ in stone.”
    So do other possible futures exist, each perhaps with alternate Dageus?

    We also have the following from Adam Black, speaking in IH. It shows us both how the Fae recognize the importance of the non-cancelation of Dageus’ prior self, and that they know he’s changed in ways they can no longer predict.:

    Adam’s head whipped around. “What does he know of it, ka-lyrra?” he said, suddenly alert. Dageus was another human wild card, like his Sidhe-seer; the things he’d endured in the past year had changed him in ways of which none could be entirely certain. Had changed him so much, in fact, that when the present Dageus had encountered himself in the past—which should have canceled one of them out—it hadn’t. Which was part of the reason the High Council had so firmly advocated his destruction.
    If nothing else, we have a small amount of evidence that suggests that whatever Dageus Prime is, he may not be subject to the same rules of physics as the rest of his world.

    One thing that stands out (thanks April, found this one interesting after we’d discussed it in the other thread) is a conversation that the Queen has with Silvan at the end of DH.

    “Your son is free, Keltar.”

    Silvan’s heart leapt. “Dageus triumphed over the Draghar? Did he succeed in imprisoning them?”

    “In a manner of speaking. Suffice to say, he proved himself.”

    “And he lives? Silvan pressed. “Is he with Chloe?”

    “I gave him back to the woman who chose him as her consort. He can never return to this century. Already time has been altered more than is wise.”
    A few notes on this quote:
    Assuming Aoibheal isn’t telling “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”, there’s an awful lot of leeway for her to be both completely honest and totally deceitful in this section.

    “Your son is free”—but not the clone created of him.

    “In a manner of speaking.”—well, clone or not, she’s being honest here. He sort of triumphed….by dying. And sort of succeeded….because the queen destroyed the Draghar when she won the bet with Adam. But it’s a great example of how she can be lying through her teeth while telling perfect truth!

    “He can never return to this century.”—Two ways to look at this one: The stones are locked down so they theoretically cannot be used for time travel. Or because D2 still exists somewhere in that time, Dageus Prime cannot come back.

    “Already time has been altered more than wise.”—again, perfect truth while not saying what has actually occurred. It’s easy to think that she’s referring to the actual change in history of Dageus rescuing Drustan, but we know that Dageus took at least one other trip back during that time. To our direct knowledge, nothing was altered. But is that really the case?

    ___________________

    So there you go—this is what I have so far. I’ve scoured each of the last four Highlander books looking for additional clues, and in the process I’ve got a fair amount on what our current Dageus may become. But that…as you’ve heard me say before...is for another post!

    OK, gang, tear it apart. Find other clues. Let’s see if we can actually prove or disprove that there’s another Dageus out there that we need to find before Shadowfever. The more I reread the Highlander books, looking for clues on all my theories, the more I’ve come to believe that we’re going to see more of the Keltar in book 5 than we have thus far in the Fever books. (Fingers crossed on that!) IF another Dageus exists, he’s going to turn out to be pretty pivotal to the story, no matter who or what he’s become. But right now, I think we need more evidence that he was ever created in the first place.


    AGAIN--I'm begging here--please, no discussion of Fever theories or characters in this thread. For the sake of newcomers to the forum, let's not spoil the Fever experience! I'll have post two up on the DrF forum as fast as I can, and that one's going to be ALL Fever speculation. LOL
    Last edited by VictoriaP; 02-20-2010 at 05:40 PM. Reason: added no Fever spoilers reminder

    "If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real
    than people with bodies and heartbeats."

    --Richard Bach, Illusions

  2. #11
    Keltar Loremistress VictoriaP's Avatar
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    Whew. Part 2 is up. You guys are going to laugh your asses off when you see what I came up with. Got to be the nuttiest theory I've advocated yet!

    Link here: http://www.karenmoning.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23612

  3. #12
    Macho Maniac aprilssix's Avatar
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    Default Missing Highlander, Missing Highlanders things

    So Dageus said that when he went back in time he tryed to bring some of his stuff to the present time with hm. Some tings make it threw and others didn't...

    Did QA pick and chose what things Dageus could bring with him?
    And could the missing things have ended up with the missing Dageus?

    Somewhere in the mist o' time
    a Fever rages in a Highlander "mine"~~
    Dual breath in a Druid born
    An Immortal lad of a Keltar lore~~
    Souls of the present meet the soul of past
    No canceling out of the sexy extra large Keltar lad~~
    Two of his kind, one stays behind
    in the past and in a present kin~~
    I'm trying to find A missing Keltar "Mine"
    Oh Dageus wherefor are though my friend?

  4. #13
    Keltar Loremistress VictoriaP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aprilssix View Post
    So Dageus said that when he went back in time he tryed to bring some of his stuff to the present time with hm. Some tings make it threw and others didn't...

    Did QA pick and chose what things Dageus could bring with him?
    Leaving out the missing Dageus--this is an interesting question. When he first went back to try and fix things, he tried bringing a note for his old self--it didn't make it. Coming forward, some of the relics he tried to bring made it (clearly enough to live comfortably on) but some did not. What was the determining factor? QA could very well be a possibility, but I suppose paradox is the most likely. Say a given dagger was meant to be used on someone in the newly altered timeline, but sometime during the 500 year gap. Maybe it couldn't be brought through--it would be interesting to know if those items ended up back at Castle Keltar, or if they were simply "lost in time".

    Maybe they're in the White Mansion? *scratches head*

  5. #14
    Macho Maniac aprilssix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VictoriaP View Post
    Maybe they're in the White Mansion? *scratches head*
    LOL..Haven't been there in a bit...probably dusty and cobwebbie, but i guess i could bring myself to go check things out.. *grabs a new box of scented markers*..."Oh Dageus"...

  6. #15
    Maniac Southern Girl's Avatar
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    I found him, he's with me! I will return him in a few hundred years.

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    Maniac 4string's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Girl View Post
    I found him, he's with me! I will return him in a few hundred years.
    There's gonna be lots o' ladies waiting in line after you're done with him.

  8. #17
    Macho Maniac aprilssix's Avatar
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    Default St Dageus

    Adam gave of his essence to save Dageus's life. I found this...

    http://www.aoh61.com/saints/c_saints.htm

    St. Cairlon (Caorlan) of Cashel, Bishop
    Feastday: March 24

    6th century. Saint Cairlon was an Irish abbot who died and was raised again to life by Saint Dageus (f.d. August 18). Afterwards, when Saint Cairlon had been made archbishop of Cashel, Saint Dageus placed himself and his monks under his rule (Benedictines).

    Troparion of St Cairlon tone 4 O holy Cairlon, thou didst repose in the Lord/ and wast raised to life by Saint Daga./ Then living the risen life while yet on earth/ thou didst spend thy years in apostolic labours./ Pray to Christ our God to save our souls.

    Daga=Daghda?

    DAGEUS can be traced subsidise to Lough Dagea ("Lake of the Two Geese") Chloes Dageus and our missing Dageus.

  9. #18
    Maniac Housekeeper of 3Bs Sky28's Avatar
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    Great finding.

  10. #19
    Macho Maniac aprilssix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky28 View Post
    Great finding.
    lol..Thanks Sky. I am always on the look out/thinking/searching for my missimg Highlander...

  11. #20
    Macho Maniac aprilssix's Avatar
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    Default VictoriaP...Karen gave me HOPE!

    So I posted on KMM's fb page and this is what went down...lol


    ME------Hi Karen.
    Was wondering if we will ever find out what happened to the Dageus that didn't get canceled out when he went back in time. Will he pop up in a future book?
    Thanks.

    Karen Moning------- You just never know

    Lorna Farrell..(Oloric on the boards).... That is a tease! It will drive April crazy for a while longer.

    April Caballero----- Lol bite your tongue Lorna Farrell.......thank you Karen Moning. ..your humble loyal missing dageus fan!!!

    Justine Mobley...(Justine on the boards)----- Admit it April Caballero you have him locked in your basement - - - Ha ha !!!

    April Caballero------ lol Justine Mobley, I just HAVE to know what happened to him!...I just hope Karen Moning doesn't kill him off. Dageus, Dageus, Dageus,,,lmao

    Needless to say, I am in Dageus heaven!!! Thank you Karen!!!!

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