JZB=not the UK

[Mercedes Veronica]

This is JMO, but I think the key is that the curse was cast into the vortex which linked the main part of the silvers. I too think the concubine's portion remained unaffected because it was deliberately sealed off for her protection and was not linked to the vortex. I am assuming that silvers and realms are different (e.g. that realms are accessed via the network of silvers) and I have no idea if I am correct in this assumption. This is how I reconcile how the HOAD can crash into the concubine's realm and yet the concubine's silvers remain unaffected - it is a destination that either a cursed silver could lead to after it carshed into the HOAD, or an un-cursed (?) silver could predictably lead to from other silvers in the unaffected portion.

I could be totally wrong.

No, we were told explicitly that the concubine's section was affected

[happygirlie]

No, we were told explicitly that the concubine's section was affected

Where? The only info I have been able to find is that the HOAD crashed in to the concubines realm - no mention of her silvers. We are told explicitly the curse was cast into the nexus - to which the concubine's portion was not connected.

[Mercedes Veronica]

I was thinking about the scene where JZB is talking to Mac while she is Pri-ya.
He told her that she needed to fill that hole herself or someone else will, or they will own you forever. Didn't it sound like he knew from first hand experience? (speculation)

He understands Mac Vengeance, so something was taken from him or he was wronged in some way in the past
He was "Damned"
JZB was broken once, and he killed the guy who did it along with the guy's wife. (this is also the line that makes me question him being UK)

Could this line indicate that he is indebted, if he found someone who was willing to "Fill that hole" ? (Can't really see the UK being owned by anyone)

These are some of things that make me feel he's not the UK as well.
but i want to point out that i don't think JZB/KMM meant owned literally....
it's really hard to explain. let alone explain it w/o bringing in a bunch of deep philosophy/psychology--that would take FOREVER

I think this has been debated. I think someone else has mentioned it but I think considering UK closed off some mirrors for concubine that were hidden from queen they would not have been effected by curse.

Someone else mentioned something that makes so much sense. When Christian and Jericho get sucked into vortex the night the walls fell Christian was sent to Hall of Days as soon as he became separated from Jericho. Why didn't Jericho?

Her theory was if Jericho is UK then like stones he would have been sent back to fortress. If so then this would explain why it took Him three days to get back after Mac had been raped. He can't use random mirrors but he knows where holes in prison wall are as well as other means such as dolmens or tabhr's.

Again, i will point out that the Concubine's Silvers were affected and are connected to the nexus/HAD/network

Well, in the vortex that separated Christian and Mac, i can ask the same question

The Silvers are virtually impossible to navigate (note the word, VIRTUALLY. it's apparent Barrons, Ry, & Darroc can). B/c of the Curse.
Could it not have taken JZB 4 days to get back from the mirrors?
That's the conclusion I came to after learning all that about the mirrors

[Mercedes Veronica]

Where? The only info I have been able to find is that the HOAD crashed in to the concubines realm - no mention of her silvers. We are told explicitly the curse was cast into the nexus - to which the concubine's portion was not connected.

That's what I mean. The Concubines Realm's are reached only through her silvers.
But now the HOAD (the mirrors in there) can get to her realms.
IMHO, it stands to reason that w/ the realms all crashed together, her mirrors can get into the other realms, thus making them no longer sealed off. Could be wrong, but in my mind (though tired and strained as it is) it stands to further reason that her silvers were affected to.
Remember, Cruce had succeeded in separating the UK from his concubine w/ this curse (and i'm think by other ways too)

But that's just my thinking on it.
Maybe i'm thinking about it wrong? 3 ppl now seem to think otherwise. but i just can't see how it makes sense. Gotta think on it more

[Mercedes Veronica]

ok!
I'm sorry if i sounded short w/ anyone! i haven't re-read my posts to double check, but i wanted to apologize ahead of time. I know when I'm crunched for time, my tone tends to sound short/stern/frustrated/rude through written text. though that's never my purpose.
Feel free to call me out on it if & whenever i do! i'll fix my posts and apologize!

btw, great job debating everyone!
all of you, you are very imaginative, creative, and pick up on things others miss, and correct misconceptions/info! keep it up ya'll!
I love that we can debate this out in the open, for others to see so they can come to their own conclusions.
I have a lot of fun doing it, but it all really makes my head spin! LOL
But i'll do what i can to keep up for now!
WG, u rock w/ your points
Happygirlie, u rock in being fair and gently calling people out! haha. you're an awesome mediator and awesome at defusing possible drama (not just in this thread, but many others) and you do it in a way that doesn't rub people the wrong way!

[happygirlie]

I think there is more to the story as well. Like why Cruce hated him in the first place. and how come cruce came to so much power if he's US (and thus created by the UK and imprisoned w/ the rest--well, he died of course). I mean, he made a bunch of poweful artifacts like the Cuff of Cruce and he can curse mirrors

I think the assumption we all jumped to about Cruce being unseelie is what prompted Karen’s damage control post, telling us not to take it too literally. I suspect it just means he is in the unseelie rather than seelie camp and what he is is still up for debate.

As to your numbered points:
1) a. ok, wouldn't the beast need to come out of the mirror as the beast, though? if JZB had turned back before leaving the mirror, the mirror should've done something to him

Maybe, or maybe he changes as he is stepping out? IDK

b. the beast only knows how to kill. I doubt the beast could know enough to get to & from his garage and whatever else barrons does w/ his mirror. What i'm saying is, I don't think Barrons can control the beast at all. That barrons is not himself when he's the beast.

Good point. If he is THE beast (which I think he is). Then again, he was carrying a dead woman

c. This is assuming that JZB is the beast (which I agree w/ but my point is, he may not be the beast at all)

We know he is A beast – Mac refers to his beast form in a SF spoiler.

2) but see, Christian had contradicted what Vlane and JZB originally said about the concubine and why she killed herself. (see my post about this originally. Or read glossary. Or the scene is in the last chapters of DrF). I think we can trust what christian say s about this b/c the Mackeltars are keepers of the fae lore and they know the fae's history better than they do b/c they don't drink out of the cauldron

Christian did not get this info in his role as a Keltar though:

“You know what Cruce’s curse was?” Finally, someone who could tell me!
“I’ve been wandering worlds in this place for what feels like bloody forever, and I’ve learned a thing or two.”

I don’t see why this info is more valid than Barrons info when only one out of the two of them could have conceivably been there at the time. I wonder who Christian spoke to / came by this info? I’m also wondering if, going by the teaser, V’lane will be the one to spill the beans as I can’t recall him discussing the curse so far. He barely mentioned its existence when he told Mac the back-story in FF.

3) a. the curse affected the concubines sealed off portion. They crashed into each other

Depends if you think realms and silvers are different.

b. Barrons wasn't allowed to be involved (Darroc said nothing about Ry & Co). Also, Barrons may be more skilled at using the mirrors than his eight. So maybe he was the only option to use the mirrors

Maybe – but he WAS involved though. I should imagine it wouldn’t matter to Darroc which mirror he popped out of – only that he didn’t.

[Mercedes Veronica]

i was just saying that Barrons couldn't be the one to come from behind b/c it may cause Darroc to kill her parents right away, no questions ask. but Darroc may hesitate if Ry or someone else comes through.
But who knows?

awesome points though

[happygirlie]

That's what I mean. The Concubines Realm's are reached only through her silvers.
But now the HOAD (the mirrors in there) can get to her realms.
IMHO, it stands to reason that w/ the realms all crashed together, her mirrors can get into the other realms, thus making them no longer sealed off. Could be wrong, but in my mind (though tired and strained as it is) it stands to further reason that her silvers were affected to.
Remember, Cruce had succeeded in separating the UK from his concubine w/ this curse (and i'm think by other ways too)

But that's just my thinking on it.
Maybe i'm thinking about it wrong? 3 ppl now seem to think otherwise. but i just can't see how it makes sense. Gotta think on it more

Gah! I hold my hands up - I don't understand the silvers

In my own head, the silvers are the roads that lead to the destinations - a type of infastructure for the fae realms. I could be completely wrong in this though...

My guess (and it is only that - a guess) is that the main silvers are all connected to each other (like a spider web) and the concubine's silvers are all connected to each other but there is no 'line' or 'route' or 'strand' or whatever it is called connecting the two sets of silvers. Therefore a curse cast into the main silvers would effect every mirror in that 'web' but not reach the concubine's as there is no 'route'. For this to work, it would mean that the curse would have to pass from mirror to mirror and could not jump from <main silver mirror> to <realm> to <concubine's mirror>. I have no idea if this is the case or not and I don't think I have explained it very well anyway.

In both Faefever and Dreamfever the 'sealed off' aspect of the concubine's silvers seems to be highlighted:

“V’lane said the king gave the queen only part of them.” “Unfortunately, he had to give the queen the nexus that contained the Hall of All Days. His concubine got only a small portion of what he’d made for her, sealed off from the rest. To compensate, he built his concubine the fantastical White Mansion, high on a hill, a house of infinite rooms, terraces, and gardens. He made that part of the Silvers accessible only through mirrors that hung in his own private chambers.”

“So there are two separate parts to the Silvers.” This was a lot to absorb. “One is a collection of possibly infinite mirrors that connect to other dimensions, worlds, and times, from the main ‘airport’ in the Hall of All Days. The other is a sealed-off smaller network that’s where the concubine lived. I guess once she died, that part was never used again,” I mused.

I suppose I just get the impression that this was highlighted for a reason

You have a point about Cruce succeeding though... so... after all that...I don't know!

[happygirlie]

Happygirlie, u rock in being fair and gently calling people out! haha. you're an awesome mediator and awesome at defusing possible drama (not just in this thread, but many others) and you do it in a way that doesn't rub people the wrong way!

Aw, thanks hon - but I don't think you've said anything to upset anyone .

There are those who would disagree with your assessment of my, um, diffusion skills, but I appreciate the sentiment

[Mercedes Veronica]

Aw, thanks hon - but I don't think you've said anything to upset anyone .

There are those who would disagree with your assessment of my, um, diffusion skills, but I appreciate the sentiment

haha. no problem. well, at least in MY experience w/ u that's how it's in been. at least w/ me (in the other thread)! hahaha

but yes. i give up on understanding the mirrors as well! i just don't know.
I'm thinking i can see it both ways now.
but....
gah! idk either!